T. A. McMahon & Jay Seegert (Part 2)

Program Description: Tom welcomes back his guest Jay Seegert of the Creation Education Center. If you want to understand how to explain a “young earth” scenario to someone, this program is a must to add to your arsenal. Engaging and logical, Jay presents his points in an easy-to-understand manner that keeps the listener engaged.

Transcript:

Gary: Welcome to Search the Scriptures 24/7, a radio ministry of The Berean Call featuring T.A. McMahon. I’m Gary Carmichael. Thanks for tuning in. In today’s program, Tom continues his conversation with Jay Seegert, co-founder and principal lecturer of the Creation Education Center. Now, along with his guest, here’s TBC Executive Director, Tom McMahon.

Tom: Thanks, Gary. Well, if you’ve been following our programs, you heard last week’s session where we’re dealing with the age of the earth - days of creation. Is the earth billions of years old, or only thousands of years old? And did God create the earth and its creatures in six days, meaning, you know, what we think of as 24-hour days, or in greater lengths of time? Our discussion…we’re having a great discussion with Jay Seegert. He’s the cofounder of the Creation Education Center, and he’s its principal lecturer. He has degrees in physics and engineering, and as you will hear and as we heard last week, it’s the Bible - that’s where his mind and his heart are first and foremost.

So, Jay, welcome back to Search the Scriptures 24/7.

Jay: Great to be back again!

Tom: You know, Jay, last week we covered a lot of territory, but we really didn’t get into specific issues. So let’s get to one’s understanding of Genesis’ account of six days of creation. Now, do we take that literally or figuratively? Are the days 24-hour days, or are they billions of years? We heard from Pat Robertson giving his view; he said basically we’d have to be stupid to believe that they’re 24-hour days. Shocking that he might say that, but as we pointed out last week, he’s not the only one. There are those that are so - have bought into science, which in your materials, you talk about - and maybe you could address this before we get into some details…this is scientism. This beliefism. This is not true science, is that correct?

Jay: Sure. It’s just the whole kind of can of worms, and one thing I’d say as background, too, with this whole question of the age of the earth, everyone kind of wants to talk about it, and it’s a very emotional issue. And sometimes when I’m talking to Christians about…when they’re discussing creation, whether it’s with an evolutionist, an atheist, or even another Christian is I don’t advise to start out talking about the age of the earth, because it’s such a hard concept for people to get their minds around. And one analogy I came up with is, you know, if you meet a non-Christian who - let’s say that they knew almost nothing about Christianity - would you start out talking to them about the beast of Revelation, and 666, and the Antichrist, and the false prophet, and all that? And they say, “Well, no, I wouldn’t do that.”

I say, “Why? Don’t you believe those things?”

And they say, “Well, yeah, I believe them, but I wouldn’t start there, because that’s kind of wild, and there’s no way they’re going to wrap their head around that.”

And I said, “It’s the same thing with the age of the earth. They’ve grown up in a society where that’s all they hear is millions and billions of years, and they look at a mountain and think, ‘Oh, those mountains - that would have taken millions of years for that to form! And we know dinosaurs became extinct 65 million years ago,’ and they just hear those things over and over and over.” So when someone comes up and says, “I don’t really buy into that; I think that God did it in six literal days and it wasn’t that long ago,” they think that you’re just crazy. So I totally get why I would receive that reaction, or why they would receive that reaction, and we need to understand that as we’re discussing this topic with other people, and approach this properly.

But the whole question of were these days literal or figurative - it’s a great question, and again, a lot of people say, “Well, those weren’t, you know, regular days. They’re not literal. It’s just kind of poetry, or it’s allegory. It’s not meant to be taken that way.” It’s very easy to say that, but what is the defense of that? And when you look at Genesis, which was originally written in Hebrew, I tell people, “I don’t take the Bible literally.” And they look at me like, “Wait a minute, you’re one of those real conservative Christians. Obviously you do.”

And I say, “No, I take it contextually. The portions that are written literally I take literally, and those that are poetry, I take that into mind that that’s poetry there; and so I take it contextually,” which is really how everyone reads any book, not just the Bible.

Tom: Mm-hmm.

Jay: And so we take a look at Genesis, and one of the first things we have to throw out on the table - it’s not a matter of what God could have done, it’s a matter of what did He say He did? If God is all-powerful - and we certainly believe that - then there’s nothing physically impossible for God to do. It’s not that He couldn’t have created it in six days. God could have created everything in six billionths of a second. He could have created it in six days, or He could have created it over six billion years or six trillion years. He could have done anything, because He’s not limited in power. So we have to throw that out that a certain time would be impossible for Him to do.

I often, you know, wonder, “Why did He take so long? Six days is a long time. You’re all-powerful. Why not impress everyone and just go ‘boom,’ blink, and be done?” But He tells us why He took so long; He tell us why He took six days: He says He did it in six days so that He would set up a pattern for us so that we would work six days and rest on the seventh. That’s Exodus:20:11For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
See All..., part of the Ten Commandments, which we’ll get back to in a little bit - but so it’s not a matter of what He could have done; it’s what did He say He did? And Genesis, when we read it, is written in literal, historical narrative. It’s saying this is actually what happened.

And there’s a lot of quotes, you know, we could go over, but one in particular - just kind of winging it; I don’t have it memorized - but this Christian was discussing the age of the earth, and his particular view was that the Big Bang is true, and the universe is billions of years old, and so is the earth, and that’s the process God used. He stated that if it weren’t for the hermeneutical considerations from science, you would get the impression that God created everything in six literal days roughly 6,000 years ago. He says, “That’s what the text is actually teaching us, but we know better, because when you bring science in, then we know, ‘Oh, it couldn’t have meant that,’” which that’s a problem, because science is a body of conclusions of other men and women who look at stuff and they say, “This is what we think happened.” But again, they weren’t there in the beginning. They don’t know everything. They sometimes make mistakes. Sometimes they even lie, and they’re studying a creation which is not the way God originally created it. It’s gone through a curse; it’s going downhill, and they’re making guesses at its processes that happened a long time ago, which is historical science vs. operational science, which deals with things we do in a laboratory where we make cell phones, cure diseases, send people to the moon - that’s awesome stuff. That’s not where the debate lies.

We can see that stuff, and we could repeat it over and over, but when they’re talking about origins and an event that happened a long time ago when no one was around to see - no humans were there - that involves a lot of guesses and assumptions, and that’s where the debate lies, and there are differences of opinions on these assumptions. Now, a Christian actually has an eyewitness account from God himself who says He did it in six days. If God used the Big Bang or some other process, God could have very easily described that. I could do it myself, and I’m not that sharp, so God could have done it. Why did He make up a silly story about six days if He really used billions and billions of years?

Tom: Mm-hmm. Well, again, take us into the terms that are used to show clearly anybody who wants to so-call “embellish” this, or bring it into their view - Jay, what are they up against just from language - the use of language?

Jay: Sure! Oh, yeah, and that’s the whole - a very, very strong defense. If we just look at the text for a second here and why this is important as we think of it, for most of history - the majority of history - we didn’t have modern science. Christians just had Scriptures, and so if we believe that modern science shows us something different than what Scripture seems to be saying, we’d have to believe that God wrote something a long time ago and He was thinking, “I know you guys are going to misconstrue this, and even though I’m writing that I did it in six days, I know that you guys are going to actually think that I’m serious that I actually did it in six days, but I don’t really mean that. I really mean that I took billions and billions of years and, hopefully, once you guys have modern science, you’ll realize that I really didn’t mean it that way. I meant the billions of years.” So that really isn’t consistent with God’s character that we would have to rely on modern science to figure out what He really meant vs. that God says what He means and means what He says. And even though the Bible is God’s first shot at writing a book, I think He did a pretty good job!

So if we look at the context there, and we look at the word “day” in Hebrew, which is the word yom, it truly can have different meanings, and that’s good enough for Christians who believe the earth is old. They say, “See, that word can mean different things. Therefore, it means long periods of time!” Well, just because something can have different meanings doesn’t mean that it has to mean a specific one. So you need to look at the context, and the first time God uses that, Genesis:1:5And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
See All..., God calls the light “day” and He calls the darkness “night.” That sounds like a regular cycle of a day. Light is the day, dark is the night. Anytime we see this word yom with a number - day one, day five, day six - it’s interesting, because everywhere outside of Genesis 1, anytime you see this word yom with a number by it, it’s always clearly referring to a regular 24-hour type day, and that’s what we see in Genesis. There was an evening and a morning, day one. Evening and morning, day two, day three, day four - they’re all numbered. And anytime we see this phrase “evening” or “morning” with the word yom outside of Genesis 1, no one questions it. It’s always a regular 24-hour day. That’s what we see in Genesis 1, as well. God says there was an evening and morning - day one. Evening and a morning - day two. Which is interesting, because God’s talking to the Israelites, the Hebrew people; He’s giving them a revelation, and that’s how they measured their day. Their day literally started with an evening, and then they had a morning. So God’s saying, “I created everything in six days. There was an evening and a morning - day one. Evening and a morning - day two.” They would have perfectly understood that as normal 24-hour type solar days.

Then God says in Genesis:1:14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
See All... - He says, “Let the lights be in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons, for days and for years.” First of all, if He’s putting the sun and the stars and things into heaven to divide the day from the night - if a day really isn’t a day, if it’s really millions and millions of years or maybe billions of years, how do the stars or the sun separate a period of millions and millions of years from the next period of millions and millions of years? And then more than that, if the sun and the moon and stars are there for days and for years - if a day really isn’t a day, if it’s really millions and millions of years, then what is a year? That would be saying, “He put it for signs and for seasons, for millions and millions of years, and for years.” That doesn’t make any sense.

Tom: Mm-hmm.

Jay: And then when we see the plural form of “day” in the Old Testament, which is yamim, it’s always referring to regular solar days, and that’s what we see in Exodus:20:11For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
See All... where God says, “For God created the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them in six days and rested on the seventh.” It clearly says, “I did it in six regular days.” If those weren’t regular days, then the Sabbath makes no sense. Then that would be saying, “We’re supposed to work for six periods of millions of millions of years each and then rest for a period of millions and millions of years,” which I’m sure we’d all like that rest period, but it doesn’t make any sense at all.

Tom: Mm-hmm.

Jay: Another issue with looking at the context, the order of events - all out of whack if we just say, “Well, I believe that God used the Big Bang,” you know, and He could do that. He’s so powerful He could. But if He did, then He either got Genesis wrong, or He lied, because according to the Big Bang, the sun formed first: swirling gases and nebular hypothesis - swirling gases formed the sun, then those gases kept swirling and eventually formed the planets and our solar system. So the sun would have been here first, and then probably millions of years later the earth. But God says He created the earth first on day one, and He didn’t create the sun until later, day four. So the order’s out of whack.

Also, according to the Big Bang, the earth would have been in a molten state and cooled down into a solid rock. And then millions of years later, water would have appeared on the rock through comets and things; so earth first, then water. But Scripture says that God created the earth covered with water right on day one, and He didn’t let the dry land appear till later, day three. And there’s a whole list of these events that are out of order if we say God used the Big Bang.

Tom: You know, folks, what Jay is laying out for you here, we’re just - this is like tips of the iceberg. With his DVD titled Creation in Six Days: A Biblical and Scientific Analysis, he covers so much more than we have time for in this, so Gary’s going to tell you how to get a hold of that DVD, which I think is just terrific.

However, some of these items - so let’s talk about death and suffering. How does that fit with the old age of the earth and the - with regard to the young age of the earth perspective?

Jay: Sure, that’s absolutely huge - a very, very huge issue, and I’m going to throw in one extra thing before I jump into that, because it is actually related, whether or not those days were regular days - again, with all the people saying, “Why are you even talking about this? It’s too divisive, it’s too controversial…just upsetting people and it doesn’t even matter. We as Christians should just be focusing on Jesus.” And again, I don’t know a Christian in their right mind who wouldn’t want to focus on Jesus, but if we’re going to focus on Him, we need to take Him as Creator just as seriously as Savior. And Jesus said something very, very powerful - very, very interesting related to this whole issue, and since we’re supposed to focus on Him, let’s take a look at it.

Talking about what we find in Mark:10:6But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.
See All..., Jesus is talking to the Pharisees, and the Pharisees obviously didn’t think too highly of Jesus and wanted to do away with Him, so they were always trying to trick Him with their questions to trap Him to get Him to answer, because they were going to be able to get Him either way; and in that context, they’re talking to Jesus about marriage and divorce. And in Jesus’s response to the Pharisees, He said, “Haven’t you read…” Like, “Don’t you know? I thought you guys were the Pharisees who knew Scripture inside out, but haven’t you read that He who created them created them male and female from the beginning of creation?” And we also get that from Matthew:19:4And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
See All... - Jesus is telling the Pharisees that God created Adam and Eve from the beginning of creation.

Okay, why is that even significant? Well, here’s why: if God used the Big Bang, and the earth was 4.6 billion years old, the universe 13.8 billion years old - you would have a Big Bang about 13.8 billion years ago. Then moving forward on your timeline, about 4.6 billion years ago the earth forms, and then let’s say 3.8 billion years ago there was a single-celled organism, and then you’d have modern man showing up on your timeline, roughly - let’s say 100,000 years ago. They believe we’ve been evolving from an ape-like creatures for 6-10 million years, but modern man about 100,000 years ago. That would be Adam and Eve, modern man. Well, if you plot it out on a timeline, 100,000 years ago compared to 13.8 billion years ago - that puts man at the very end of the timeline. In fact, it’s about 0.0013 percent away from the end of that whole timeline.

But Jesus said that Adam and Eve were here from the very beginning. Now, if God actually created in six literal days, and that happened roughly 6,000 years ago, you would have Adam and Eve being created in that first week of creation on day six, and then you’d have about four and a half thousand years ago a flood, 2,000 years ago Jesus, and then here we are today. That, when you plot that out, puts Adam and Eve at the very beginning. In fact, that’s about…when you do the numbers, it’s 0.00027 percent away from the beginning, which is what Jesus said: that Adam and Eve were created at the very beginning of creation, but that only works if God created in six literal days.

And that ties into, then, your question about death and suffering, which is huge. This, in my mind, is probably the biggest issue with the days of creation and the age of the earth. If the earth were billions of years old, that doesn’t make it more or less spiritual, so it’s not really about an actual age - it’s about what does Scripture say? And one of the biggest problems is in my presentations - I’ve got a very powerful PowerPoint that illustrates this - but if you envision in your mind the geologic column, all the layers in the earth - and we kind of are familiar with that - here’s why this is a problem: if we say that God used the Big Bang and that kind of a process, and that the earth truly is old, and that there weren’t six literal days, here the issue is - you picture the Garden of Eden and Adam and Eve, and they’re sitting there in paradise, and Eve is saying to Adam, “Adam, this is such a perfect world.”

And Adam says, “Yes, Eve, it’s very good,” just like God said - Genesis:1:31And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
See All...: “Behold, God saw everything He created, and it was very good.” Well, we’re familiar with that. We’re okay with that. But if God used that Big Bang, you’ve got that Garden now sitting on top of all the layers in the earth that people believe supposedly the earth formed over millions and millions of years. That would mean those layers accumulated below them slowly over millions and millions of years before they were here, so the layers in the earth are being formed and filled, and they’re filled literally with billions and billions of fossils. Today when you look at the layers, you see fossils all over the place. Well, if those layers truly were formed over millions and millions of years, that means those creatures were living and dying during that time and being buried, so now you have evidence of death and disease and suffering and pain and bloodshed and mutations and even evidence of cancer in dinosaur bones. So all that’s going on for millions of years as the earth is forming. Then when it’s done, God does create that nice Garden up there and puts Adam and Eve in it, and they’re saying this is paradise.

In reality, however, if that scenario were true, it’s not paradise. The world they’re living in is literally filled with death and disease and pain and suffering and dying and bloodshed. But the Bible very clearly teaches us - Romans:5:12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
See All..., for example - that it was by Adam’s sin that brought death and a curse into God’s creation. And if God used that Big Bang and the earth is old, that means that death and disease were around for millions and millions of years before Adam even got here, so it’s not his fault that death is here. Therefore Jesus Christ, in a sense, wasted His time dying on a cross, because it’s not our fault that death is here - even though Jesus came to defeat death. His resurrection defeated death, which was the last enemy. So for the Christians who say, “Well, I just think God used the Big Bang,” most of them don’t realize that they’re introducing millions and millions of years of death and disease and pain and suffering before Adam is even here to corrupt things, to change everything. It’s very clear: the Scripture says it was by Adam’s sin that brought death into the world.

Tom: Mm-hmm. And as we’re talking about sin, that brings up the flood. Now, the flood in Noah’s time - tell us how that relates to the age of the earth. Or is it unrelated?

Jay: Sure. Another issue - and this is something that…again, in my experience, most Christians that I talk to who tend to learn towards an old earth - I know where they’re coming from, and I approach it very sympathetically, because I know they’re generally being very sincere. One thing they don’t realize is that if they do accept an old earth, they can no longer believe truly in a global catastrophic flood, and here’s the reason why: in their scenario of God using the Big Bang and the earth forming over billions of years, and the geologic column forming over hundreds of millions of years, they believe that all those processes - Mt. St. Helens, and Mt. Everest, and the Grand Canyon, and all those major geologic features - they were formed during these hundreds of millions of years, and then after that, God created Adam and Eve. Well, then that would mean that later on in Scripture - roughly…let’s round it off - 1,700 years after Adam, we have the account of Noah. So Adam and Eve are created; roughly 1,700 years later we are told about Noah being here and God saying the whole earth had gotten so corrupt that He regretted even creating them, and He was going to destroy the earth with a flood.

So now, if you have a flood coming at that point, it can’t be a global flood, because you already have all the geologic features of the earth done. Grand Canyon’s already there with all of its layers. Mount Everest is already there. But a global flood at that time would ruin all that. It would disrupt all those layers and lay down new layers on top of all that, but nobody on the planet believes there was any kind of global catastrophe after the Grand Canyon was already laid down.

So the Christians who accept an old earth have to say, “Oh, well, I guess in Noah’s time, it wasn’t really a global flood, it was just a local flood where Noah was living,” which, first of all, is not at all what Scripture describes. Scripture says, “All the high hills under all the heavens were covered with water,” which is a global flood. If it was just a local flood, why would God have Noah spend over a hundred years building an ark? He could have said, “Hey, Noah, here’s the number of a good realtor. Move! I’m going to flood this area!” Why put all those animals in the ark? Why would it have to be a huge ark? You could just put local animals on it. Why put birds on it? Birds would have just flown away; they’d have been fine. But it only makes sense if it was a global flood.

And also God says, “You know what? I’m never going to do this again. I’m never going to send a global flood again.” Well, if it was just a local flood, then God lied, because we’ve had thousands of local floods since then where hundreds of thousands of people have lost their lives. But God says, “I’m never going to do this again.” So when you really look at Genesis 6-8 there about the flood, you know very clearly this is a global catastrophic worldwide flood that really actually happened in history. But you can only have that if God created everything in six days and then later the flood came, buried all the things on the earth in those layers, so those layers were largely formed during and after - shortly after the flood. But if you believe in an old earth, then you have to go back into Scripture and say, “Okay, I know it looks like a global flood here, but we’re going to have to say it was just a local flood,” which doesn’t do diligence to Scripture.

Tom: Yeah. Now, Jay, you know, we’re running out of time here, but as I mentioned earlier, folks, Jay deals with issues - radiometric dating, the earth’s magnetic field, carbon 14 - these are all in his DVD, and we couldn’t do it justice even describing these things even in a short time, so I recommend, again, for these - you know, Jay has a degree in physics, engineering, you know. He’s not just spouting these things off without some knowledge and understanding there.

Now, we’ve got about two minutes left. Jay, give us your concern for the body of Christ, and the importance of Scripture in the lives of believers who are trying to accommodate these things. What’s your view on that?

Jay: Sure. In a nutshell, I’d have to say my main concern is not the ultimate age of the earth, but it’s people’s view toward Scripture where they think they really kind of have to go to science to get certain truths, and then they can go to the Bible just to get maybe some spiritual truths. But if the Bible is wrong about its Genesis creation account, how do we say, “Well, we know that Jesus’ stuff is true”? Well, based on what? How do we know that that’s right if we’re admitting there are really issues in other portions of Scripture, or it’s not meant to be taken seriously?

And one pastor - very quickly - told the congregation that Genesis doesn’t mean what it says. A nine-year old girl asked her mom afterwards, “Well, if Genesis doesn’t mean what it says, when does God start telling the truth?” That’s a good question! And Psalm:118:8It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.
See All... says, “It’s better to trust the Lord than to put confidence in man,” and we really can trust what Scripture says. When we look at real science - including radiometric dating, which we didn’t even get into - we see that true science always backs up God’s Word.

Tom: Jay, I can’t thank you enough. You make my job so easy. I just throw a question at you, and you take it. And what you’ve presented is really - not just informative, but hopefully, it will spark some concern on the part of those who have just bought into these things without really being Bereans, without really searching the Scriptures to see if these things are so. And as you said, that’s our heart. That’s our mind. That’s what the program is about.

So, Jay, again, thank you for being with us. Gary’s going to tell our listeners how to get a hold of your materials, which I highly, highly recommend. So thanks again, Jay, for being with us.

Jay: I appreciate the opportunity.

Gary: You’ve been listening to Search the Scriptures 24/7 with T.A. McMahon. A radio ministry of The Berean Call. For more information about Jay Seegert’s Ministry, The Creation Education Center go to CECWISC.com or call 262-422-1918.

We offer a wide variety of resources to help you in your study of God’s Word. For a complete list of materials and a free subscription to our monthly newsletter contact us at P.O. Box 7019 Bend, Oregon 97708. Call us at 800.937.6638. Or visit our website at the bereancall.org. I’m Gary Carmichael. Thanks for joining us, and we hope you can be here again next week. Until then, we encourage you to Search the Scriptures 24/7.