T. A. McMahon & Mark Dinsmore (Part 2)

Program Description:

Tom and TBC staff member Mark Dinsmore discuss in detail some of the aberrant teachings, such as Sozo and Theophostic Prayer, that are deceiving pastors and their flocks everywhere.

Transcript:

Gary: Welcome to Search the Scriptures 24/7, a radio ministry of The Berean Call featuring T.A. McMahon. I’m Gary Carmichael. Thanks for tuning in. In today’s program, Tom continues his discussion with TBC staff member Mark Dinsmore concerning extra-biblical movements, beliefs, and practices currently popular in Christendom. Now, along with his guest, here’s TBC executive director, Tom McMahon.

Tom: Thanks, Gary. Today we’ll be…well, we’re in our second session with Mark Dinsmore, who’s on staff here at The Berean Call. I wanted to call him our guest, but, no, he’s my discussion partner because I see him all the time. Well, now he’s moved to Washington with his family, so now we communicate through the amazing technology that we have with computers…phones! We still have phones here – cell phones and so on.

Mark: (chuckles) Right!

Tom: Now, Mark, last week – well, let’s bring some of our listeners up to speed if they missed last week’s program. Now, our programs – they’re all archived, so if you missed last week’s you can go to our website or other places, which Gary knows about and I don’t – you can go to those places and hear part one of this discussion.

But here’s what it’s about if you missed it: We are looking at programs, movements, that are primarily taking occultic and psychological ideas and removing some of the terminology that would give them away as being psychological or occultic, and they are spiritualizing – using spiritual terms, but they still are based in techniques that are either psychological or out of the occult. It’s a fraud, without a doubt, because people let their guard down. When they hear some things come along, and you hear somebody say, “Well, no, no, no, this has nothing to do with psychology. This is biblical!” – well, just as, you know, in a technique of trying to understand the Bible going back to Augustine and others, they’re spiritualizing. They are moving away from the objective Word of God and coming to an understanding through spiritualizing – using terms that are more experiential, more subjective, which sounds good, maybe even feels good, but the problem is they’re not true.

So, what might be some examples of what I’m talking about? Well, last week, at the end of our program, we mentioned “Theophostic Counseling,” which has now been retitled as “Theophostic Prayer.” We’ll talk about that little bait and switch, but that’s the deal – that they are imposing upon the Scriptures ideas that are just not scriptural, not biblical.

Now, Theophostic Counseling would be one, Theophostic Prayer; the other one would be Sozo, which is a movement that comes out of Bethel Church in Redding, CA – Pastor Bill Johnson, who’s had a huge influence in movements such as the New Apostolic Reformation; he’s been influential in IHOP, the International House of Prayer; Kansas City Prophets – all of those things, which again are related to things like the Toronto Blessing, which was signs and wonders magnified through people falling on the ground, barking like dogs, doing all kinds of things…claiming that this was a moving of the Holy Spirit, which then moved to Pensacola, FL, and was there for awhile, and then moved down to Lakeland, FL, and  - again this stuff is spiritual debauchery, as far as I’m concerned, as far as the Bible is concerned. These are not works of the Holy Spirit; these are movements of men and may even be, in some areas of it, overtly demonic.

So, Mark, Theophostic Counseling – give us some background there for those who are not aware of it.

Mark: Right, well, as you mentioned, Tom, Theophostic Counseling was developed by Ed Smith, a counseling psychologist, and he changed that name to Theophostic Prayer as a result of trying to avoid, ultimately, legal ramifications, lawsuits, as a result that they’re not offering counseling but prayer, as other people tried to use his techniques that he was selling and kind of “Get started in your own Theophostic Counseling ministry” kits.

Tom: Now, Mark, let me interject this: Now…folks, listen to this. So you have a program called Theophostic Counseling, but now some things have happened because of the techniques that Smith is using, and has used, but [that] have also been used in the whole inner healing movement, which we dealt with last week.

So what was the problem? Well, one of the issues was they would regress their clients – inner healing, or let’s say those who they were supposedly ministering to – they would use “regressive therapy”; that is, they would take them back through the suggestion of the counselor – they would take the counselee back to supposedly a memory that they had of, maybe, abuse, or whatever it might be. The problem was that, for the most part, these memories were induced, and they were no small items. In some cases the counselee saw her father sexually abusing her. In other cases that they were subjected to satanic rituals. In other cases they blamed siblings for abuse, and all of that. In many cases – I mean, I can’t say for all - but for the most cases, these were contrived imageries, these were contrived memories, that were induced by the counselor.

So, you’d say, what happened? Well, this destroyed lives; this destroyed relationships, and they were based on false memories. So these people who had their lives destroyed took these people to court, and the courts awarded them substantial monies for what they were put through, through the court system.

Now, let’s move ahead to Theophostic Counseling. They use, in many cases, the same techniques. Mark, you can tell us about some of the techniques that they use in a second, but they use the same techniques. So now, there was a problem. Would they be subjected to litigation because of that?

So Ed Smith then changed the name to Theophostic Prayer. So, you’re going to tell me that if I go to one of these counselors for prayer, that I have to sign a release from harm for prayer? I mean, come on! This is really fraud, big time, and it’s a seduction – well, it’s a crime, in my view.

But go ahead, Mark.

Mark: Yeah, the tragic thing, Tom, is that through the decades these teachings don’t go away – they just change. So we had the Theophostic Counseling, Theophostic Prayer, with Ed Smith in the ‘80s and the ‘90s; and out of that came other teachings picked up by other churches and teachers, such as the Sozo program initiated at Bethel Church as a result of teaching from Randy Clark in the mid 1990s, and Sozo, actually, for those who might be curious, is a Greek word meaning “saved, healed, delivered.” And so they take what is a biblical concept and impose upon it a psychological idea that there are things that even though someone may have come to Christ, that someone still needs to deal with these things internally to be completely healed and saved and delivered, that there is an additional step or steps that they need, and that involves these prayer techniques, which I’d be happy to list a few of those.

Tom: Well, let me start with one, because I have a quote for…in terms of supposed discernment. Within Theophostic Prayer, the counselee…oh, and by the way, if you want to be a counselor in this program – do they just give this course away free, Mark?

Mark: No, I think it costs upwards of around $300 to get started.

Tom: Okay, so now we’re paying for a technique, and here’s how it works: the counselor determines…well, first of all, he has the counselee visualize Jesus. Now, we talked about that. But how do we know that this is the biblical Jesus? Or how do we know that this is, in fact, not a demon impersonating or masquerading as Jesus?

Well, Ed Smith, the founder of this program, he gives his basis for discernment (I’m quoting him): “I have found that when a person looks carefully at the face of a demon Jesus – face of a demon Jesus – it will usually be dark or hazy or look angry, scornful, or evil.” Now how’s that for discernment? I mean…well, it’s just incredibly stupid, but more than that, it’s very, very dangerous. You could unwittingly be entertaining a demon. Now, whether…for true believers, I don’t believe that demons can possess true believers. We have the Holy Spirit resident within us, but that doesn’t mean that there cannot be oppression – demonic oppression because you’re entertaining evil here.

Theophostic Counseling is also said to work for non-Christians. Now, here’s another quote from Smith: “People consistently say the resolution and subsequent peace was from God. This is even the case with those who do not profess any relationship with God.” And later, Smith says, “God does not seem to require confession of sin from a nonbeliever.”

So, in my evaluation of this, and you can give us more techniques, Mark, but in my evaluation of this, you’re paying upwards of $300 for this program. It works for nonbelievers as well as it does for believers, according to the program. So in my view, this is all about filthy lucre. This is all about money.

Mark:  Well, it seems to be an aspect, Tom, of a way that…and regarding that specific amount, it may have changed, and different people may charge different amounts depending on the degree of teaching you’re getting. But there’s always new seminars, new courses, that you have to add to your initial tool belt, so to speak…

Tom: Mm-hmm.

Mark: …but, yeah, there’s an aspect of trying to professionalize this…almost – or franchise it…

Tom: I would think franchising…

Mark: Yeah.

Tom: …that’s a real true term for what we see here.

Mark: Yeah, it develops an income stream for the person who initially conceives of the idea, and so “Theophostic” is a trademark; it’s a brand. “Sozo” is another trademark, or a brand – a methodology that in turn becomes marketed.

Tom: And from a spiritual standpoint, when they say, which I’ve quoted, that this works for unbelievers, yet it produces the peace of God without repentance, that’s just outright a lie. That’s outright…something that’s so contrary to biblical salvation, to the way the gospel works and what it is that you would think people would – those who claim to be believers – would realize that.

Mark: Well, you would think so, Tom. That reminds me of our friend Johanna Michaelsen’s book, The Beautiful Side of Evil, which Satan can, indeed, bring healing; he can bring peace; he can bring all kinds of things to people who are even unbelievers, and yet it’s through the occult.

Tom: Mm-hmm. Now, Mark, again, we alluded to Sozo. Now, this is, again, as far as I’m aware, this is in terms of a huge movement, a large movement, that’s influencing literally thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of believers – or professing Christians, at least – Sozo, coming out of Redding, Bethel Church, Bill Johnson – we’ve mentioned all of that. Give us that program and how it developed. You talked about Randy Clark, but what about the women involved? What about just the process? Do they use the same techniques, or do they have to come up with all new ideas?

Mark: Well, again, some of these techniques may have different names, but it’s a bit of smorgasbord spirituality – picking up bits and pieces from different traditions, different countries, things that appear to work, and molding them and shaping them into a marketable program. But the two women involved at Bethel Church, Redding, that had this division are Dawna De Silva and Teresa Liebscher. And they use a variety of tools – six, primarily. They call one “The Father Ladder”; another is called “The Four Doors”; “Presenting Jesus”; “The Wall”; and then, two advanced tools they have, called “Trigger Mechanisms” and “Divine Editing.”

So, let’s just take one: The Father Ladder is a way to bring healing in the lives of believers who need counseling that…over emotional hurts that keep them separated from intimacy with the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. So they go through the process of visualization in order to provide this connection and to bring healing.

Tom: Mark, these ideas, these techniques, as we mentioned earlier in last week’s program, supposedly there is a blockage in … again, I don’t know what terms they’re using, because they’re trying to avoid psych…you know, to be labeled as psychology, so they’re trying to avoid some terms, but basically, whether it’s these blockages or in the “inner spirit” and we’ve got to find a way to get to these things and release the blockage, and so on.

Now, give me chapter and verse for that. You know, for those who – and this is part of the problem today - people need to question anybody and everybody. We are supposed to be Bereans. As Isaiah said, “To the law and the testimony; if they speak not according to this word, there’s no light in them.” Where as Bereans, we need to search the Scriptures, just as these Jews in the Greek city of Berean did when Paul – the Apostle Paul – was preaching to them about the Christ who would come, the Messiah.

So, we’re obligated to, you know, before the Lord to know what we believe, why we believe it, and to check things out according to the Scriptures.

So they’re not doing that. So, they would take, to try and figure out what this blockage might be, this issue in their lives that’s keeping them from growing in Christ, they would use guided imagery, visualization, as we’ve mentioned – visualizing Jesus, or having the counselor guide them through and maybe…well, not “maybe,” but often it comes down to them inducing false memories, supposedly for this breakthrough, so the individual can have some kind of catharsis, some kind of emotional experience, that they seem to have been released from this blockage.

But this is problem solving – I mean, it’s wrong, but the idea of it is, “Well, let’s just fix the problem. And once the problem is fixed, then we go on.”

But any kind of ministry – biblical ministry – has to do with the goal of maturity of a person growing in the faith, not just fixing their problems, because those are usually symptoms of something else, and if you are just dealing with the symptoms, the problem’s going to remain. They’re going to come back looking for this technique or that technique or another technique.

Now, the people who are trained as Sozo therapists believe this guided imagery, this is ordained of the Holy Spirit, and that the Holy Spirit’s going to protect them from any harm or any demonic involvement. But wait a minute! If this is not true biblically, then they’re just making that up. If…the only way the Holy Spirit is going to superintend anything is if it’s true to the Word of God. If you’re doing what the Word of God says we are to do, and this process, not only is it psychological, but it’s also occultic in many ways.

Mark: Absolutely, Tom, and you brought up “guided imagery” and “visualization,” and of course, hypnotic regression, but the people practicing – whether it’s Theophostic Prayer or Sozo - would deny that they’re actually employing these psychological methodologies. They sincerely believe that they are, as you said, protected and guided by the Holy Spirit. But it’s interesting in the case of Sozo in particular, even before these counseling sessions take place, they spend quite a bit of time in what they call “soaking prayer.” And that would involve soft mood music, dimmed lights, and they believe that is preparing them for the counseling session to follow. So even before that, they are opening themselves up to powerful suggestions.

Tom: Now, Mark, you have – well, this is one of the reasons why we’re having this discussion, because I know that you’ve addressed people on a personal basis – people in your church when you were here in Oregon, and so on – you addressed these things, and how did that turn out?

Mark: Well, Tom, it’s heartbreaking. I’d love to give a personal testimony of how we’ve shared the truth with friends and family and former church members who recognized their error and have repented and have come out of this movement and its delusions, but at this point in time, I can’t. You know, that’s not to say that there’s no hope because we know that the effective prayers of a righteous man or woman availeth much.

Tom: Mm-hmm.

Mark: So I’m sure there are some who have come out of this deception and its seductive, destructive heresies, but just to recap briefly, we “long suffered” in a fellowship for close to two years trying to bring biblical correction to a pastor and a pastoral staff, which included a women’s counselor on staff, who we discovered was utilizing some techniques and methodologies from Theophostic Prayer.

And it didn’t end well. The most shocking thing is that after agreeing to meet with us, my wife was involved with me in presenting the research that we had accumulated – over 300 pages of testimony of folks who have been harmed by this type of therapy and so-called ministry – and to our shock and dismay, the pastor and the womaen’s counselor on staff refused to look at the material. They simply would not consider anything that came against the teaching. And that was the beginning of the end, the very near the end, of our tenure in that fellowship.

Tom: Mark, how would you describe this church? Would you say they were hyper-Charismatic or into signs and wonders? Or was this more on the…sort of in that realm, but on the conservative side?

Mark: Well, it’s a good question, Tom. It was - without naming the denomination or the church - it was a blend of folks ranging from Charismatic-Pentecostal to conservative evangelical. So very much like many community churches would experience today, and about this time, as we discussed earlier, this prayer methodology, this inner healing methodology, is popular among the New Apostolic Reformation and churches affiliated or associated with those teachers and these teachings. And the same was true at this fellowship. But the source of division (the church eventually split, and the pastor ended up bagging groceries for a period of time) – but the church split over – it wasn’t the inner healing movement, but the same counselor who was introducing these heresies was also propagating doctrines of the New Apostolic Reformation through the so-called neo-prophetic and neo-apostolic. And the church ended up splitting over the whole Todd Bentley and Lakeland Revival fiasco.

Tom: Yeah. Now, folks, here’s the problem. All of these things that we’re describing are extra-biblical. All right, you cannot find an example within the Scriptures that would support this. Paul didn’t do it. John didn’t do it. Peter didn’t do it. You go on and on, you won’t find chapter or verse or description. So it’s extra-biblical. Not only the things that we have mentioned with regard to its occultism, to its psychobabble, and so on. Those are problematic. But it comes down to this issue: Are we going to go by the Word of God? Or are we going to go by these new ideas, these new concepts, these new revelations? Most of this stuff…No! I would say all of this stuff is not just extra-biblical - it is experiential.

Now, within this whole system there’s a whole idea, which we don’t have time to get into, but it has to do with “Today we are hearing from God; the written Word of God, that’s old hat. Now we need to hear personally from God, who’s going to guide and direct us into this (really) New Age.” And I’m using that term to cover both ends. “God is doing a new thing.” We hear that over and over again, and it’s divorced and devoid of Scripture, which is the problem. So, if that’s the problem, the solution is we’ve got to encourage people to get back to the Word of God. “To the law and the testimony,” as I mentioned before. That’s the antidote. That’s the solution.

Now, if they’re not willing, there’s nothing we can do about that. But if they are truly being seduced and drawn into this unwittingly, but they really want to know the truth, then the truth is found in the Bible, the Word of God. That’s where it is, right, Mark?

Mark: Amen, Tom. You know, it’s interesting [that] you brought up the New Age, because this, again, is a smorgasbord spirituality approach. I just got an email today from a New Age organization that is advertising a course on How to Craft Your Own Religion. And of course, this approach that we’ve been discussing for Theophostic and for Sozo is no different. They have collected bits and pieces and tidbits and crafted their own way, which according to Scripture, twice in Proverbs we’re told, “There is a way that seems right unto a man, but the way thereof in the end is death.

Tom: Okay, Mark, we’re out of time for today, but, you know, we never run out of material, sadly. It’d be great just to be doing programs just dealing with the Word of God. But the Word of God – it needs to be defended. We’re just trying to do that. We’re trying to inform the body of Christ, just as there are many, many warnings throughout Scripture, that we’re in the last days, this is the apostasy, but the answer, the solution, the prevention, is in the Word of God.

Mark: Amen, Tom.

Gary: You’ve been listening to Search the Scriptures 24/7 with T.A. McMahon, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. We offer a wide variety of resources to help you in your study of God’s Word. For a complete list of materials and a free subscription to our monthly newsletter, contact us at PO Box 7019 Bend, Oregon 97708. Call us at 800.937.6638.  Or visit our website at thebereancall.org. I’m Gary Carmichael, we’re glad you could join us and we hope you can tune in again next week. Until then, we encourage you to Search the Scriptures 24/7.