Does the Bible Teach Spiritual Mapping?

Tom:

Thanks, Gary.You are listening to Search the Scriptures Daily, a program in which we encourage everyone who desires to know God’s truth to look to God’s Word for all that is essential for salvation and living one’s life in a way that is pleasing to him.Our subject for this segment of hour program is spiritual warfare which we began last week and had no hope of covering fully because of the many, many concepts, techniques, methods and programs that have developed in today’s Christendom.

Dave:

And we’re not going to cover it fully today either Tom.

Tom:

No I don’t think so Dave.

Dave:

Probably we’ll move on after today.

Tom:

Yes.

Dave:

Well that’s up to you.

Tom:

We’ll see—we’ll see how it goes.

Tom:

Again Dave, as we mentioned last week, this is not your Apostle Paul’s spiritual warfare, but rather teachings and techniques which proponents claim have been communicated to them directly by God.And some of the terms—

Dave:

Well Tom, not just directly by God, but from demonic entities as well.That’s where they get much of this.They talk to these spirits.

Tom:

That’s true.

Dave:

They say—let me just give you a quick quote.This is Fuller Seminary Professor Charles Kraft and he says, “Those with clinical experience (psychologists) with Christians, clinical experience with Christians having demonic symptoms have overcome their doubts and concluded that Christians can and regularly do carry demons.”Now that’s a whole other subject Tom.Maybe you’re going to get into that.

Tom:

Yes, we have to get into that later, but you know what I wanted to do Dave?I want to go down—

Dave:

But he gets this from experience with these entities.

Tom:

Right.

Dave:

Let me just give you another quick quote here.This is from C. Peter Wagner.He’s the man remember, God told him to take charge of the Spiritual Warfare Network, so he says.

Tom:

And begin dealing with territorial spirits.He heard it directly from God.

Dave:

Right, right, that’s what he claims.Listen to what he says, “One fundamental thesis will control this discussion of us coming to grips with some of the relatively new (that’s what you’re saying, the new stuff, not Apostle Paul stuff) and at times radical ideas surrounding strategic level spiritual warfare, spiritual mapping, identification repentance and other such issues.This is the thesis: That ministry that is experience precedes and produces theology not the reverse.”We are going to go by experience guys.Rather than go by the Bible, we are going to interpret the Bible according to our experience.Sorry to interrupt Tom.

Tom:

That’s okay.Dave, this relates to what we talked about last week.The idea of rhema versus logos.That is these guys have translated, understood rhema as hearing directly from God.

Dave:

Rhema being one of the Greek words that’s translated “word.”

Tom:

Exactly.And they try to make a distinction.One is the written word and the other one is, rhema is hearing directly from God.

Dave:

Not true.

Tom:

Now this is a doctrine though that they are promoting and developing even to the point that C. Peter Wagner says, “One among rapidly increasing numbers of others who believe that a valid source of divine knowledge comes through what some would call extra biblical revelation.I dare say that the standard brand evangelical doctrine of logos only; that we were taught might now find a place on an endangered doctrines list and about to become extinct.Wow!Now Dave, I hope our listeners understand that we have the Word of God.It is objective.You and I might have disagreements over it, but we can look at the words and we can come to a conclusion whether it is in Greek or Hebrew or whatever it might be.But if you tell me you just heard from God, Dave how am I going to challenge that?How am I, especially if you decide to make a doctrine out of what you believe God told you?I mean it could have been a pizza you had the night before.It could have been something in your imagination, or whatever, but it’s very subjective.

Dave:

These people have built up a whole theology on their own revelations that they have gotten and in part from discussing it with the demons that they say—

Tom:

Which would always tell them the truth, which would always convey—never in anyway would they want to deceive them.Oh come on!

Dave:

These lying spirits.It’s a tragedy, but it’s rampant in our world today, not just in the spiritual warfare movement.But I can remember so many people coming up to me in the past and saying Dave, let me tell you what God has just told me about you.Well, okay when God tells me, then I’ll listen to it.But so many people are looking for a special word from God and in the mean time they are neglecting the written Word that he has given us for our instruction.The Psalmist said, “Thy word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path, wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way?By taking heed thereto according to thy word.”It talks about the fruitful man in Psalm 1 who meditates on God’s Word day and night.But these people are neglecting it and looking for some special word that God gives them.It gives them a sense of importance I guess.Tom, we’re not trying to be critical of these dear people, but we want to warn them that this is very dangerous.

Tom:

Well a warning and we’re grieved because if this isn’t really true to God’s Word, all this time energy and money—we’ll talk about some of the money involved in reinforcing this and committing themselves to these kinds of methodologies and techniques.All of that has—if these are God’s people—it has them doing the adversary’s work. They’re basically—they’re not even marking time—it’s so counter productive because it leads others down a path like this and it cannot produce, it cannot bear fruit if it’s not of God; if it’s not his way and he lays out his way in his Word.

Dave:

Amen.

Tom:

Dave, what I would like to do which is a little different from what we do normally, and that is go through questions we have been going through In Defense of the Faith, but last week, because we started on spiritual warfare we went over a number of terms that have to do with techniques, that have to do with approaches, methods that the Strategic Level Spiritual Warfare people use and I thought it would be good if just identify them, maybe explain them in a little bit more depth and then just see, and I’ll defer to you, where do we find these in scripture.Let’s begin with “binding territorial spirits.”Now we mentioned last week, they base it on Daniel 10, but can we bind a spirit?Where do we find that in scripture?I don’t care if it is a territorial spirit or whatever.How many people have prayed without even thinking through what they are praying: “we bind you Satan, you know over this and then over that and so on.”I am sure a lot of people do, but how valid is that?

Dave:

Well Tom, you won’t find it in the Bible.We can’t find it.Paul didn’t do it.Jesus didn’t do it.Now he cast out demons, but he certainly never bound territorial spirits.Here’s what’s behind it Tom.We mentioned John Dawson, Youth with a Mission last week and in his book titled: Taking Our Cities for God: How to Break Spiritual Strongholds, now where does it ever say take your city for God?Paul never took a city for God, Peter never did, Jesus never did, in fact the Bible indicates the opposite.This world lies in the wicked one, but anyway Jack Hayford in the foreword writes: “This is a book of Holy Spirit insight into the toughest problems we face on this planet today.”And Dawson says, “The demonic strongholds that bind our urban populations have power, but we can overthrow them.This book lays out a five-fold approach to bring down our city strongholds.”They’ve been doing this for a long time Tom, and they have not brought down any strongholds.They have not taken any cities for God.Jack Hayford, dear man, loves the Lord, but he has had seminars on this, “Taking Your City for God,” for a number of years.

Tom:

Dave, let me jump in on this term “stronghold.”I assume they are getting it from 2 Corinthians:10:4(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
See All....Let me read it: “(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)”Now is that some kingdom, some territory, is that some encampment of Satan that they are talking about?Is this a strong hold? Is this what the scriptures are talking about?

Dave:

It goes on and explains it.These are the imaginations; these are the thoughts in our hearts.The stronghold is in our heart that gives itself to Satan’s lies and tearing it down is through the truth of God.

Tom:

You see again as you read their explanations, their rational for these approaches, they would admit okay, because the scripture does say these are arguments, these are the thoughts of men, but then they would say but “every high thing that exalts itself.”High thing meaning demons.These are entities that we have to bind, that we have to pull down.It’s not in the scriptures.

Dave:

I don’t find it ever taught or practiced.

Tom:

Yes, Dave you mentioned—

Dave:

But Tom as you said, it takes you off on side trips.Youth with a Mission sent teams to the northern most, southern most, eastern most, and western most points in various continents around the world for strategic prayer.They think if they march around something and pray in that way.Well it happened once at the walls of Jericho, but that is not a technique to be engaged in.So what it does as you said, it uses energy, time and resources to go off on these expeditions.

Tom:

Well here’s an expedition.They sent a group to Mt. Everest to pull down the strong hold.They identified this.Again, one of the approaches is called spiritual mapping and they would check the history books and look for historically wherever there had been any kind of pagan or cult rituals or power centers in their mind and in their view.And sometimes they say they get it from archaeology, from history books and so on, but other times where there’s not enough information they get it directly from God.

Dave:

So they say.

Tom:

So they say, and then they are directed to areas in the world in which are these strong holds and in this one in particular was called the Operation Ice Castle.This group was sent to Mt. Everest in Nepal.Now they say—

Dave:

Tom, it came because of a revelation that some woman got, is that not true?

Tom:

That’s exactly true.The revelation was that this was the location of the seat of the queen of heaven.And this group, evidently they were novices at mountain climbing and so on, but they were just led of the Holy Spirit and so on.

Dave:

So they said Tom.I keep reminding our listeners of that.Not led of the Holy Spirit.

Tom:

But if somebody’s interested I did an article on this in one of our past Berean Call newsletters.It was called “Prayer Gone Awry” and if somebody’s interested in further documentation of what we are talking about, because we can’t give all the details, they can contact us and we’d be glad to send out a reprint of that article.But Dave, you mentioned John Dawson.One of his techniques—

Dave:

Tom, before you get onto him, were you going to tell what happened up there?This stronghold of the queen of heaven on Mt. Everest?Did they get her?

Tom:

Well the claim was that there was an avalanche.After they prayed there was an avalanche that was unlike any that had ever affected the area and supposedly they did damage to the power to the queen of heaven.

Dave:

So you can imagine that an avalanche of ice and snow affects a spiritual being.Not quite Tom, and that’s a problem.They’re mixing the physical and the spiritual here.But anyway, sorry I’m interrupting you.

Tom:

That’s okay.Dave, John Dawson, in his book, Healing America’s Wounds, he comes up with a concept called identification repentance.Now I’m quoting out of C. Peter Wagner’s book, Confronting the Powers and he addresses this.C. Peter Wagner addresses this.He says, “When white Americans adequately repent of the slave trade, healing of racism will begin.When Japanese repent of the bombing of Pearl Harbor the grip of the sun goddess will loosen.When Christians repent of the Crusades doors will be open for the evangelization of Muslims and Jews.These are only a few examples of pulling down strongholds in the form of arguments on the current spiritual warfare network agenda.”Now let’s go over a few of those.Identificational repentance.

Dave:

Tom let me address the Muslim thing.They sent teams over there around the world repenting for what Christians did.First of all.

Tom:

Yes, they went on journeys.

Dave:

They did.They went to these actual locations.They went to Ephesus for example.

Tom:

Right and Turkey.

Dave:

And they were there in the arena where the Ephesians cried out against Paul and then they cried to repent of what the Crusaders had done and they praised God.But the Crusaders were not Christians.This was—

Tom:

It certainly didn’t go by the scriptures.

Dave:

They were not following the Bible.What the Crusaders did, they did it in disobedience of the Word of God and disobedience of Christ’s commands and in disobedience of the example that Christ set and that the apostles set.What the Muslims have done—

Tom:

And they were motivated by indulgences.

Dave:

That’s right.Catholic indulgences.The promise of passage to heaven.They could pass by purgatory and get to heaven.But Tom, what the Muslims have done.They’ve killed millions in obedience to Islam.In obedience to the Qur’an; in obedience to Muhammad and following Muhammad’s example.And then to send Christians out to apologize for what the Crusaders did and to have the implication that the Muslims were wronged, were harmed when they have killed far more, so many and are still doing it today.It was just insane and it’s not biblical.

Tom:

It’s irrational because if you’re going to really stand behind the concept of identificational repentance then the Muslims would have to do the same thing.

Dave:

Exactly.

Tom:

This power behind their teaching, this demon behind what they promote according to Wagner and all those who are into this, you have to have it that way.

Dave:

But he doesn’t say a word about that.

Tom:

Not at all, not at all.But Dave, how about, let’s bring it home here.You’re white, I’m white and supposedly we’re to stand up and confess the sins of our forefathers with regard to slavery and so on and that’s going to release a bondage here that we share with regard to racism.What do you think about that?

Dave:

Well Tom, first of all, I had nothing to do with it.I don’t know how I can possibly repent.I don’t even know that any of my ancestors did.My father’s ancestors came from Norway and England.Maybe some of them were involved, but I think the blacks would also then have to repent because they’re the ones who started slave trading.There were slaves in Africa before the white people came.Secondly, it was the Muslims.It was the Arabs who bought them from the blacks and then sold them to the West.But he’s not saying anything at all about that.We have to, if there’s guilt, let’s deal with an even hand.

Tom:

Well let’s try and make some sense of this, which you can’t.That’s really our point here.These are ideas that seem to be reasonable at a certain level and so on, but once you get past the surface of it, it’s really superficial and it does not make sense Dave.

Dave:

I don’t find an example in the Bible where God said now if the Israelites would repent of this then it would open the door to evangelism, or Tom, it isn’t there!And it doesn’t make sense as you say, but it isn’t biblical.But the tragedy is people are being led astray.We know of people who went on this march, spent many months of their lives, spent a lot of money to go over there and supposedly repent to the Muslims.What did it bring about?I guess it brought about September 11^th perhaps.Perhaps it brought about the forming of Al-Qaeda, I don’t know.But it certainly didn’t open the door to the gospel in the Muslim world.

Tom:

Dave, connected with identificational repentance is a teaching which has to do with generational curses and you have to remove them.For example, if I was having real problems and I went to see a Christian therapist—Neil Anderson for example would promote this.He would find out about my past, and we would get into my history and then we would find that somewhere down the line or is it up the line, I don’t know which one.But I have a great-great grandfather who was a Mason.Now because of his involvement with masonry, then what I would have to do is acknowledge that and repent of it in order to break the curse.Because just because he was involved in that then I’m cursed and it’s affecting my life and my walk with the Lord, my fruitfulness and so on because of something my great-great grandfather got involved in.

Dave:

Yes Tom, that’s not biblical of course and it doesn’t make sense, but it’s related to so-called inner healing.They’ve had a lot of women going back into the past and coming with some experience they had, being supposedly delivered from it by visualizing Jesus present and they seem to be free, have a deliverance for time, and whoops, then they’ve got problems again.What do you know, there’s something else you didn’t uncover.Now how am I ever going to find everything that my grandparents, great-grandparent, great-great grandparents and so forth?I mean my father as I said came from England, some of my ancestors may have been Druids involved there at Stonehenge, I don’t know.I have some ancestors from Norway.Oh those guys were in all of Norse gods.How are you ever going to find everything thing that everyone of your ancestors was involved in number one, and number two, why should that affect me?“If any man be in Christ, he is a new creation.Old things are passed away, all things have become new.”So when you follow this Tom, it’s not biblical, it doesn’t make sense, you would be forever trying to uncover some other thing in your past and that’s the problem.No, the problem is you don’t want a right relationship with Jesus Christ right now.You’re not trusting God and not trusting his Word and not walking in obedience to him.It’s that simple.This is all the Bible ever offers as the solution to be triumphant in Christ.Never ever does it say anything about going back into the past.

Tom:

Dave, lastly something that’s foundational to all of this and you alluded to it at the beginning of the program.There’s a major teaching of these individuals who are promoting these spiritual warfare ideas [and it] is that a Christian can be demon possessed.Whether it be through some generational curse or whatever it might be, somehow these demons are able to attach themselves to us, even come in to us as Christians who are (as you said) born again, we’re new in Christ, we’re the temple of the Holy Spirit, yet we have a demon.

Dave:

That’s a cop out.That’s trying to blame a demon for your own lack of obedience to the Lord.But here’s part of the problem Tom.John Wimber said, “We are cataloging all of our experiences so we can develop a theology.”No we judge our experiences by our theology; by the Bible.But they were developing new doctrines, new teachings, new understandings, new techniques by their experiences and were being led astray.And it led many others astray.It’s a tragedy.

Tom:

Dave, one last quote supporting what you said.C. Peter Wagner writes, “Then in 1983 John Wimber received the rhema word regarding an illness that Wagner had.”And he says that “The word from God was that the root cause of my headaches had been a demon and that I was to drive it out myself rather than ask someone to do it for me.I obeyed; I cast out the demon in the name of Jesus, and I have not suffered any such headaches since that day.”

Dave:

Well there you go.How can you argue with experience?And now our experience becomes our guide.

Tom:

And if that’s the case, it’s every man’s opinions, every man’s subjective evaluation and “There is a way that seems right unto a man and the end there of are the ways of death.”