T. A. McMahon & Richard McDaniel (Part 2)

Program Description:

Tom welcomes back guest Richard McDaniel, missionary and long-time friend, as they discuss challenges today in the mission field.

Transcript:

Gary: Welcome to Search the Scriptures 24/7, a radio ministry of The Berean Call featuring T.A. McMahon. I’m Gary Carmichael. It’s great to have you along. In today’s program, Tom continues his conversation with special guest, Richard McDaniel, a long-time missionary and an elder with Bend Bible Fellowship. Now along with his guest, here’s TBC executive director, Tom McMahon.

Tom: Thanks, Gary. Today, part 2 of a series—I've been interviewing Richard McDaniel; as I mentioned, I've known Richard for at least two decades, and he's an elder at Bend Bible Fellowship, and that's the church that Dave and Ruth Hunt attended before they went home to be with the Lord. We've been discussing missions. Richard, for nearly all of his life—certainly a great part of it has been involved in missions. And as I mentioned last week, the thrust of his work is to train indigenous people, that is, natives of the country that he visits, to be missionaries right here in out own country, which I think is fantastic. That's the way it needs to work.

Now, Richard, in this second part, I really want to talk about some of the problems that do come up, and I want you to be as candid as you will about this, but you're in a country, or different countries, that have different spiritual—well, different religions, different spiritual approaches, whether it be Brazil, Kenya, Nigeria—you just got back from India, where there's Hinduism, or, in some places there, Islam. You're heading for Myanmar. Now, let's start with Brazil. You and your family were there for three years. What was the biggest problem in terms of the mindset of the people, or the religion of the country? How did you deal with that, and what was it?

Richard: Well, Brazil is the largest Catholic country in the world, population-wise and predominantly Catholic, although there's been a great move of the Lord there. Many people have come out of Catholicism – well, they get saved and they come out. So the problem there, of course, is Roman Catholicism, and, as you are well aware, Catholicism is very syncretic. It blends with the culture where it's at, and Brazil has had a lot of influence from Africa in the sense that they brought slaves over for 300 years, and so with that influence, they brought in spiritism, and…

Tom: Mm-hmmm.

Richard: …so Brazil has kind of blended a certain amount of spiritism with Catholicism, and that's a problem. That was, I guess, the biggest problem there in Brazil. How do we deal with the religion? Well, I think that the most important thing is to establish the authority of the Scriptures. Another thing is that we try not to directly attack the religion. I think it's helpful to know things about the religion but not to directly attack it. I would maybe ask the question, "Well, if the Church teaches this, and the Bible says this...," for example, take something simple, like "Call no man father." Which one has more authority? The Church or the Bible? And to really establish the authority of the Scriptures and how the Scriptures come from God, and so He has the final authority. So that was how we'd approach it, and then…

Tom: Let me comment on that, because I absolutely agree with you. As you know, Richard, I came out of Roman Catholicism, and I tell people if I would have written out my theology, let's say six months to a year after coming to the Lord, understanding the gospel, what it was about, if I would have written out my doctrine, I would have stoned myself as a heretic, okay? Because there was that baggage. This is why I like the point that you made: what weaned me off of that was the Word of God, God's Word being my authority. So now it was easy – well, not easy all the time, because I did have these biases, and so on – but then I could go through and compare what I was taught for some 30-some years, and I went through Catholic elementary school, Catholic military school, Catholic high school, and even in college, I was in a Catholic fraternity. So there's a lot of baggage there. But to compare, first of all, starting with the gospel – understanding that Jesus paid the full penalty for my sins - I mean that was huge, because that's not a part of Catholic teaching, and that I couldn't do anything on my own. Works didn't help. The penalty had to be paid. It was an infinite penalty, and belief in that. But then to go through the Scriptures – the instructions of God, I could start throwing things out immediately: purgatory, the Eucharist – all of these things – the rituals, the sacramentals, again, the teachings of the Church. But it didn't happen overnight, and that's kind of what I'm getting at. In Brazil, you start with people in the discipleship program, but then the authority of the Word of God just starts throwing them overboard, these false ideas, these false teachings.

Richard: Right. And I think we need to be well versed in the Scriptures. We need to have our hearts prepared, we need to know the Word and be able to present – I try to go more from a positive rather than an attack mode, and just…because they haven't heard the truth.

Tom: Mm-hmm.

Richard: …they haven't seen it all. They don't know the wonderful plan of salvation. You can start back in Genesis and just build foundations, and the light begins to dawn in people's hearts. And they see there's real life! One thing that struck me the first time I went to Brazil, I went into one of the great cathedrals. [I'd] never been in one, and…ornate in every way, and looking around, and there was a woman sitting in a pew and she was weeping. And I thought…I just…my heart went out to her. She has…here she is in a system that offers her no hope, and nothing there for her. There's no life in that. And they need to see the life in Christ, and that comes from the Word and from a positive presentation.

Tom: Mm-hmm. Let's go back to another country. Let's go back to Nigeria, where you spent a little time, and Kenya as well. Now Roman Catholicism in Brazil – and it's all over the world, so it's not just those countries – now you have so-called Christian churches, in some cases in larger cities, one on every corner. But they're into a false Christianity; they're into prosperity, the whole word-faith system, which is not according to the Scripture.

Richard: Right.

Tom: What I'd like you to do…you know, I'll add to it, but under the basis for that attraction, it seems to me, is there…it's rooted in shamanism. It's rooted in animism. It's rooted in, really, occultism, and now it's combined with another methodology, another occult system, which would be the word of faith, prosperity, and all of that. Did you come up against that? And how did you deal with it?

Richard: Well, I was never in Nigeria, but our mission has had work there, and I know exactly what you're speaking of. I didn't see it as much in Kenya, but these false doctrines have gone all around the world, and they're being carried, you know, by certain men coming out of the West and bringing this - what's called the prosperity gospel. It's really caused so much havoc. In 1 Timothy 6 it talks about this doctrine, and it talks about those who preach that gain is godliness. And that's what they're doing, and it refers to them as destitute of the truth. And along with that is the idea that all suffering is of the devil, and they put in a substitute for faith where positive confession is called "faith," which it is not. So it's really taken people away from really knowing God and depending on Him and having a vibrant life. And a lot of these churches are so materialistic, they'll take the offering three times, and the big billboards showing the prosperity of the pastors because supposedly they've followed this method. It really promotes a kind of…trying to use God as a power to gain something for yourself.

Tom: You know, Richard, here's a contrast but also an irony. You mentioned the Roman Catholic Church in Brazil and saying that it's syncretistic. That's the way the Catholic Church has always gone out into the world. They find out…they get an idea of the spirituality of the land and then they combine it with the Catholic view. For example, the saying in Haiti is that the Haitians are 85 percent Catholic and 100 percent vodoun, or voodoo. So you see that kind of thing.

Now, here’s the irony, as far as I'm concerned - in, let's say, Nigeria, where you have this prosperity teaching, it's all based on methodology – it is really occultism. But the foundation of the Nigerians, which is animism and sorcery, witchdoctors, and so on, they're…on the basis of supposedly missionaries coming from the West…and calling themselves evangelicals, charismatics, whatever it might be, they're doing exactly the same thing to Nigeria, Kenya, to many of the African countries, and in other places as well, this very same thing.

Richard: Right. Amen!

Tom: Now, another question for you. I saw a long time ago a video called Ee-taow, which was produced by New Tribes. As the video started, you had this couple who couldn't get into the mission field because they weren't qualified, according to the organization that they were trying to go through. Now that brings up an issue, which, to me, is prevalent in many if not most mission organizations, and that is the individuals have to go through a psychological profile. They have to be analyzed psychologically to see if they're fit for the mission field. What's your response to that?

Richard: Well, I think that psychology has no place in the work of the Lord. And I think that that is tragic that this has become a methodology among mission boards to do that. I think that we need to know that God's Word is sufficient. His calling is sufficient. His power is sufficient. And I think that psychological testing is intended to find human weakness and determine suitability. That's probably why they do that, but…

Tom: Well, let me just add to that, since…

Richard: Sure!

Tom: Not only that, it's a fraud. It's a fraud scientifically. It's incredibly subjective. Who's making the decisions? Based on what? This is not math, okay? This is not even a typing test, where you can say, "Okay, they didn't pass the typing test.” This is an incredibly subjective approach that has no basis in science, yet it is pushing people away, who many probably have the calling to go into the mission field to fulfill the Great Commission, but they've been put off by a pseudo science, a false idea. An idea that the church has taken on in so many ways, and it's so tragic. But go ahead.

Richard: Yeah, and I would ask the question, too, is weakness, or perceived weakness, a liability? Well, it wasn’t for Paul.

Tom: Right!

Richard: He expressed how that…he says…well, this is the Lord speaking to Paul, and saying, "My grace is sufficient for thee, for my strength is made perfect in weakness." And Paul's response is, "Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me."

So I think that those involved with missions, they need to recognize when they go, that they'll probably be stretched, and sometimes beyond measure, but that's an opportunity for God to show His power.

Tom: Right. And for their growth!

Richard: Right.

Tom: Yeah, well, I agree, and I'm just, as I said, grieved over where the church is in…not all the church, but certainly, for the most part – why they think they're going to get their answers from men – the wisdom of men. You know, it's just telling us that God's Word is not sufficient. That's a royal lie right out of the pit.

Richard: Yes, that's right.

Tom: Now, let's take it to another level with regard to this. Because we're talking about the world's way, we have seen organizations in the past that I think have done a tremendous work for God, but as the years go on, they've deviated from that. One of the things I'm thinking of is the Salvation Army. All right, this upsets me. When it comes Christmas time, and I see this kettle out front of a store and somebody ringing a bell, okay? to get people to put money in this kettle – for what? Is it for the salvation of souls? I mean, specifically? Or is it for meeting men's worldly needs and covering things? What do you say to that?

Richard: Well, I think that the Salvation Army, for example – that's a good one to look at for an example - they started with a good vision, good motives. They were bold proclaimers of the gospel. But somewhere down the line, they introduced humanitarian relief and…which is, which has a value, but there has to be the right perspective on it, and the focus…the problem is the focus changed from the gospel being primary to the relief being primary. Along with that, they began fundraising and using methods which Christians ought not to use…

Tom: It's marketing, basically.

Richard: Right. Marketing methods, and the world became a help to their ministry. Whenever the world gets involved, you have a problem. We have examples of that in the Scriptures. 

Tom: You see, again, if they would have continued with salvation being the thing, but as you said, the Scripture says that if we have the opportunity to help, for, you know, good works for the world, not just the church - when that opportunity arises, that's fine. But as soon as it displaces the gospel, as soon as it displaces the eternal aspects of life – not just the temporal needs that we have, but if it doesn't get to the eternal destiny of humanity, what have we got? It's worse than worthless. It's tragic.

Now, let me take this another step. You know, from our vantage point at The Berean Call, we're concerned about organizations that push a social gospel. So, as you said, if an organization, whether it be Salvation Army, YMCA, which started out with a vision and a purpose consistent with salvation, but then it turns to a social gospel, and I'm thinking of course of World Vision. You can check them out. They will not proselytize. They will work within the system of a worldly government in order to get in to help people, which – it’s not all bad, but the end of it is just temporal salvation, which is worthless – worthless to the degree that it may put a person into a position in which they think things are going well, but eternal life – they never get to that.

Richard: Right. Well, the emphasis becomes on the temporal and not the eternal, and that's the wrong emphasis, that's the wrong perspective. It just shows a lack of compassion, really, for souls. It's kind of the easy route because you don't get people upset with you. It's not of any value to the Lord's work. His work is through the Spirit, so these works, you know, the simple answer is…well the question being: How does this fulfill the Great Commission? How does Rick Warren's Global PEACE Plan fulfill the Great Commission? Well, the simple answer is, it doesn't. It doesn't contribute anything to it. In fact, it hinders it – because it's clothing it in a different way and it has…there's no value, spiritually, to it.

Tom: You know, Richard, you mentioned Rick Warren's Global PEACE Plan. I mean, here was a plan of his to solve the problems of the world. And so, in terms of sincerity, in terms of somebody that wants to do good, you'd say, "Okay. That's all right." But the way he's going about it - he's not the only one; there are others out there who see social injustice. In other words, they see the problems of the world, which they want to overcome. In other words, they're trying to bring a solution to the problems of mankind before Christ returns.

Now, not only is that impossible, according to the Scriptures, but they're going about it in a way…for example, the Global PEACE Plan – Warren's trying to fix the problems of poverty and ignorance and social injustice and even, here's one, spiritual emptiness. Well, how's he going about that? By working with Hindus, Muslims, Catholics, and other nonbelievers. Now, that's worse than a contradiction. I mean, it's antithetical to what the Bible is about.

Richard: Right. And it sounds to me like a melding of things, which really plays into this one-world religion that we're going to see set up some day. So, we're just building. We're building toward the great end, and unfortunately these kind of programs just leave people out of the kingdom.

Tom: Now, Richard, we've got about a minute and a half left, but I want you to go back to something that I think is so important, and that is mentioning the authority of God's Word. For example, they say, "Why are picking on Rick Warren? Why are you looking at World Vision?" Folks, all we're saying is: You compare what they're saying to the authority of God's Word. So how would you, for our listeners, in support of the Great Commission, what would you say to them

Richard: Well, I would say that the Bible is not a suggestion book. It's written by God; it's God's revelation to man. It's His Word, and we need to have respect for it and respect for the authority of God, fear the Lord, and [to] fear the Lord is the beginning of all wisdom. And simply, He's looking for obedience, so, if we would obey the Lord we would find great blessing. Consider the request of the Lord Jesus. He told us that the field is white unto harvest, and He said, "Pray the Lord of the harvest that he would raise up laborers for the harvest." And that's His heart, is to see men and women in the church in service for Him, seeking to fulfill that which He began. The Father began it, the Lord Jesus continued it, and now it's the church's turn, and we need to be faithful, available, and teachable.

Tom: Yeah. You know, I think of the other words of Jesus, we can close with this: "Why do you call me Lord, Lord, and you don't do the things that I say?" So it really comes back to submission to God, obedience, and if we're willing to do that, that's all we have to bring to the table – a willingness to obey, and He'll enable us.

Richard: Amen! Amen!

Tom: Richard, we're out of time, but thank you so much, Brother! Hopefully, it will speak to the hearts of those we've had the privilege of speaking to.

Richard: All right. Well, praise the Lord, and thank you, Tom, for your insights that this conversation.

Tom: Amen.

Gary: You’ve been listening to Search the Scriptures 24/7 with T.A. McMahon.  A radio ministry of The Berean Call.  We offer a wide variety of resources to help you in your study of God’s Word.  For a complete list of materials and a free subscription to our monthly  newsletter contact us at P.O. Box 7019 Bend, Oregon 97708. Call us at 800.937.6638.  Or visit our website at the bereancall.org.  I’m Gary Carmichael, thanks for tuning in and we hope you can join us again next week. Until then, we encourage you to Search the Scriptures 24/7.